Well Raven does not really want to be a monogamous Item with Yuri, exactly, which is partly what kept throwing him when people tried to talk to him about it. Part of it is just that he doesn't think Yuri would do it in a million years, of course, but it is also that while his feelings for Yuri are ridiculously strong they are not... romantic in precisely that sense either? I mean he's romantic about it because he's a romantic, but at it's core it is more dedication/admiration/obsession than romantic love. But he doesn't know how to categorize that, since really in his head there is "the one person you love and dedicate yourself to" and "casual sex with people you don't really care about." This was accentuated by going "it's not romantic" to Beatrice and having her go "oho, so it's like that~" and him mentally going BUT NO IT'S NOT LIKE THAT EITHER. Obviously Yuri is a lot closer to the former than the latter, but rationally he does not want to dedicate himself to Yuri like that, due his desire to not depend on Yuri for everything ever as well as the fact that he still... loves women. And a few women in particular. Viscerally he does want to give himself to someone like that, though, and Yuri in particular because he owes him so much, so it is hard to avoid.
BUT ANYWAY Raven does not actually think Yuri is an emotional failure. He just thinks he's very good at walling off his feelings and denying their relevance, which is something that he's very familiar with, even if Yuri obviously does it in a different way than he does. So that was actually another one of those things that made him feel a camaraderie/on the level with Yuri! ~They can work things out together~ It was really a huge step. :|a He's just not really... together enough to do any calm working things out atm.
WHY DIDN'T YOU BELIEVE ME WHEN I WARNED YOU, YURI...
To have believed Raven he would have had to have been aware of his own limits and his own kind of emotional brokeness, which he just WASN'T at the time. He's a little more aware now, but... it's mostly a blind spot. And also... he really does want Raven. He would have no issues with having something with Raven on the same level that he has something with Vincent and he knows it would be hairy to work out but of course he doesn't understand how against Raven's nature that is.
Will Raven ever be able to take Yuri off the pedestal? If this ends badly could Raven ever hate Yuri?
WELL the pedestal is being knocked down fairly efficiently at the moment. It is amazing how well being annoyed and toppy at Yuri works for that. He would then have to figure out how he feels about him and how to deal with him in a more equal context though, and who even knows. I don't think he would actually hate Yuri ever, if nothing else because that would require distilling his feelings down from their complicated mess to something as simple as hate, but if it ends really badly he might try to cut himself off. :|a
If Raven managed to get someone to agree to be his girlfriend and told Yuri to lay off because he wanted to be monogamous what would Yuri do...
Yuri would 100% be okay and lay off and be totally happy for Raven and would ABSOLUTELY not go out of his way to make his life hard by teasing and whatnot. He'd only get kind of... tsun if Raven started drifting away, but he'd just repress it anyway. It is confusing that Raven keeps asking him what he wants because really, he just wants Raven the same way he's had Raven and he also wants to make Raven happy.
Tell me about Raven's feelings in this current thread.
OVERALL HIS FEELINGS IN THAT THREAD WERE REALLY MUCH THE SAME. From Raven's point of view he felt like he was mostly just reiterating things, not saying anything new. Whether Yuri understood it differently or whether how he approaches things will change is a different question of course. But really it was much the same as what he was feeling in the non-drunken party thread. How he will act in the future still depends on the balance between "I can't do this it isn't really what I want" and "fuck it I don't care I want something like this and I will take what I can get" and of course what Yuri does! LIKE IT HAS BEEN. He didn't really feel like anything was... actually resolved there, other than maybe actually communicating to Yuri the depth of his feelings finally.
But the one sort of... major swerve in the conversation was of course Yuri saying "I can't imagine feeling like that." BECAUSE THAT IS KIND OF... irreconcilable. Yuri not really knowing how he feels or not how to express his feelings, but working on it together with him, is one thing! BUT LIKE. Raven is still on some level willing to try to tone it down to a less obsessive level, but he didn't get any impression from Yuri that Yuri was actually interested in... toning it up. And he really can't handle Yuri being genuinely like "I don't really care either way" about it. If he's going to want Yuri as much as he does he wants at least some real desire and effort in return and it kind of sounded like there... wasn't. That. :|a BUT YURI DID AGREE EARLIER THAT THEY COULD WORK ON IT... BUT IS THAT EVEN A GOOD IDEA IF THEY ARE SO FAR APART... WHO KNOWS!! IT'S TIME TO SLEEP OFF HIS AFTERNOON HANGOVER.
To expand more on "take what I can get," another big part of Raven's conflict is that he really does often feel that anything he can get with Yuri is the best that he can get. While he does really want a dedicated romantic and sexual relationship with someone, he has like zero faith in himself to manage that, especially at the moment. So sometimes he's like... okay yes this is not the dedicated relationship I idealize and really want in my heart, but it is sex with someone I care a lot about, and that's a hell of a lot better than anything I managed before, whatever the downsides. MAYBE I SHOULD JUST ENJOY IT FOR WHATEVER IT IS LIKE EVERYONE KEEPS TELLING ME?
That is another thing that makes him feel like the feelings in their relationship are really uneven, though, because obviously that is not a concern for Yuri! Yuri has stated that plus or minus sex with Raven makes no difference to him, whereas for Raven it is functionally the difference between the best thing he's had ever and nothing. Add that to the romantic feelings or lack thereof on each of their parts and you get why he reacted so negatively to Yuri suggesting they could be on equal footing.
And that imbalance of feelings makes him feel really vulnerable. Although again I don't think that would really bother him as much if he felt like Yuri was... taking advantage of the vulnerability? To make his feelings into a terrible sex analogy, it is like he has stripped and laid himself out naked and wanting for Yuri, and Yuri is just sort of strolling by casually going "sure, do whatever you want, I don't care either way." The core problem here is not that he's naked and Yuri's not—while potentially awkward and obviously not equal, that could also be the opposite of a problem in the right circumstances. So likewise the problem is not the feelings imbalance being present exactly, it is that Yuri is not being a very attentive top about it. :|a Feelings top. THIS IS CLEARLY THE BEST ANALOGY EVER.
Because yes he loves Yuri a lot and now that they've had sex kind of wants to have sex with him all the time, and so even more than Yuri not returning those feelings he feels like Yuri is not even... appreciating them. Or him. Except when they are actually having sex and he can do things for Yuri, which is pretty much the most amazing feeling ever. And Yuri obviously enjoying himself with him and Yuri saying he wanted to get screwed senseless has reassured him that the desire in the relationship is not completely one-sided. BUT SEX CANNOT BE ALL YURI WANTS, Raven has no clue what he's doing with men and obviously cannot be the best lay ever. So that is why he keeps asking what Yuri wants... because he very much feels like he is in the more vulnerable position in this relationship, and would be pretty much willing to try just giving Yuri whatever he wants from him! Even if that's... camaraderie, occasional mild affection and sex on days that are a multiple of three. Or whatever. Knowing that he could try to settle himself to being happy with that much. But Yuri keeps saying that there's nothing he wants from him. :x Or that he just wants to do what Raven wants. And Raven is like... but what I really want is completely unreasonable to ask someone who doesn't want anything from me. IT MAKES IT HARD TO COMPROMISE.
I really am sorry Raven has so many feelings. But you better reverse me.
Yessss there was a lot of reiteration but it was kind of necessary because Yuri just DID. NOT. GET. Raven's hangup. For Yuri it was very simple:
1. You are important to me. 2. You clearly are attracted to me 3. I am also attracted to you
He really didn't understand why Raven kept accusing him of being casual. Like, I've acknowledged you're important to me. Of course I'm not being casual. Same thing with how Raven kept bringing up the fact that Yuri had someone else; he didn't see the bearing it had on his relationship with Vincent. Yuri's logic was very "Well we are definitely involved either way; sex is just a nice bonus." BUT he was only half telling the truth when he said he could take it or leave it. Yuri has super positive feelings about sex, so of course he wants physical intimacy with Raven and to make Raven feel good. He wasn't kidding when he said he didn't really need anything from Raven because he already HAS what he wants--that camaraderie.
Yuri knows he's in an advantageous position because Raven is 'his' and there's a power issue; he didn't know he had that kind of feelings advantage over Raven, which is why he flinched in the Endgame thread. He should NOT have that much power over someone, and no-one should be that invested in him. He tried to fix the situation by being vulnerable himself so it was kind of a cold bucket of water to the face when he realized that he was just too deficient. He couldn't understand Raven's feelings, just for lack of ABLE to feel that way. He doesn't even feel that way about Vincent.
Even if you stripped away his self-denial issues, Yuri just ISN'T a person who needs much. Or, rather, he gets what he needs by being a useful person. So fucking up Raven by not being able to give him what he wants is kind of a blow. He was basically AS VULNERABLE AS HE COULD POSSIBLY BE an it wasn't good enough. It's not that he won't return the depth of feelings, he just flat-out doesn't have those resources.
BRIEF NOTE: I mentioned in chan that Yuri is feeling more and more that Vincent is the only one who will have him. Sharon's heartgame ended up happening at a hilarious time because Yuri just keeps getting more and more entrenched into Vincent's world, and he's beginning to think that it's probably just for the best that Raven distance himself from him, since he himself is becoming more distant from Terca Lumireis.
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edgeofjustice) wrote2011-11-10 03:18 pm
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BUT ANYWAY Raven does not actually think Yuri is an emotional failure. He just thinks he's very good at walling off his feelings and denying their relevance, which is something that he's very familiar with, even if Yuri obviously does it in a different way than he does. So that was actually another one of those things that made him feel a camaraderie/on the level with Yuri! ~They can work things out together~ It was really a huge step. :|a He's just not really... together enough to do any calm working things out atm.
WHY DIDN'T YOU BELIEVE ME WHEN I WARNED YOU, YURI...
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Will Raven ever be able to take Yuri off the pedestal? If this ends badly could Raven ever hate Yuri?
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If Raven managed to get someone to agree to be his girlfriend and told Yuri to lay off because he wanted to be monogamous what would Yuri do...
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Tell me about Raven's feelings in this current thread.
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But the one sort of... major swerve in the conversation was of course Yuri saying "I can't imagine feeling like that." BECAUSE THAT IS KIND OF... irreconcilable. Yuri not really knowing how he feels or not how to express his feelings, but working on it together with him, is one thing! BUT LIKE. Raven is still on some level willing to try to tone it down to a less obsessive level, but he didn't get any impression from Yuri that Yuri was actually interested in... toning it up. And he really can't handle Yuri being genuinely like "I don't really care either way" about it. If he's going to want Yuri as much as he does he wants at least some real desire and effort in return and it kind of sounded like there... wasn't. That. :|a BUT YURI DID AGREE EARLIER THAT THEY COULD WORK ON IT... BUT IS THAT EVEN A GOOD IDEA IF THEY ARE SO FAR APART... WHO KNOWS!! IT'S TIME TO SLEEP OFF HIS AFTERNOON HANGOVER.
TELL ME YURI'S FEELINGS.
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To expand more on "take what I can get," another big part of Raven's conflict is that he really does often feel that anything he can get with Yuri is the best that he can get. While he does really want a dedicated romantic and sexual relationship with someone, he has like zero faith in himself to manage that, especially at the moment. So sometimes he's like... okay yes this is not the dedicated relationship I idealize and really want in my heart, but it is sex with someone I care a lot about, and that's a hell of a lot better than anything I managed before, whatever the downsides. MAYBE I SHOULD JUST ENJOY IT FOR WHATEVER IT IS LIKE EVERYONE KEEPS TELLING ME?
That is another thing that makes him feel like the feelings in their relationship are really uneven, though, because obviously that is not a concern for Yuri! Yuri has stated that plus or minus sex with Raven makes no difference to him, whereas for Raven it is functionally the difference between the best thing he's had ever and nothing. Add that to the romantic feelings or lack thereof on each of their parts and you get why he reacted so negatively to Yuri suggesting they could be on equal footing.
And that imbalance of feelings makes him feel really vulnerable. Although again I don't think that would really bother him as much if he felt like Yuri was... taking advantage of the vulnerability? To make his feelings into a terrible sex analogy, it is like he has stripped and laid himself out naked and wanting for Yuri, and Yuri is just sort of strolling by casually going "sure, do whatever you want, I don't care either way." The core problem here is not that he's naked and Yuri's not—while potentially awkward and obviously not equal, that could also be the opposite of a problem in the right circumstances. So likewise the problem is not the feelings imbalance being present exactly, it is that Yuri is not being a very attentive top about it. :|a Feelings top. THIS IS CLEARLY THE BEST ANALOGY EVER.
Because yes he loves Yuri a lot and now that they've had sex kind of wants to have sex with him all the time, and so even more than Yuri not returning those feelings he feels like Yuri is not even... appreciating them. Or him. Except when they are actually having sex and he can do things for Yuri, which is pretty much the most amazing feeling ever. And Yuri obviously enjoying himself with him and Yuri saying he wanted to get screwed senseless has reassured him that the desire in the relationship is not completely one-sided. BUT SEX CANNOT BE ALL YURI WANTS, Raven has no clue what he's doing with men and obviously cannot be the best lay ever. So that is why he keeps asking what Yuri wants... because he very much feels like he is in the more vulnerable position in this relationship, and would be pretty much willing to try just giving Yuri whatever he wants from him! Even if that's... camaraderie, occasional mild affection and sex on days that are a multiple of three. Or whatever. Knowing that he could try to settle himself to being happy with that much. But Yuri keeps saying that there's nothing he wants from him. :x Or that he just wants to do what Raven wants. And Raven is like... but what I really want is completely unreasonable to ask someone who doesn't want anything from me. IT MAKES IT HARD TO COMPROMISE.
I really am sorry Raven has so many feelings. But you better reverse me.
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1. You are important to me.
2. You clearly are attracted to me
3. I am also attracted to you
He really didn't understand why Raven kept accusing him of being casual. Like, I've acknowledged you're important to me. Of course I'm not being casual. Same thing with how Raven kept bringing up the fact that Yuri had someone else; he didn't see the bearing it had on his relationship with Vincent. Yuri's logic was very "Well we are definitely involved either way; sex is just a nice bonus." BUT he was only half telling the truth when he said he could take it or leave it. Yuri has super positive feelings about sex, so of course he wants physical intimacy with Raven and to make Raven feel good. He wasn't kidding when he said he didn't really need anything from Raven because he already HAS what he wants--that camaraderie.
Yuri knows he's in an advantageous position because Raven is 'his' and there's a power issue; he didn't know he had that kind of feelings advantage over Raven, which is why he flinched in the Endgame thread. He should NOT have that much power over someone, and no-one should be that invested in him. He tried to fix the situation by being vulnerable himself so it was kind of a cold bucket of water to the face when he realized that he was just too deficient. He couldn't understand Raven's feelings, just for lack of ABLE to feel that way. He doesn't even feel that way about Vincent.
Even if you stripped away his self-denial issues, Yuri just ISN'T a person who needs much. Or, rather, he gets what he needs by being a useful person. So fucking up Raven by not being able to give him what he wants is kind of a blow. He was basically AS VULNERABLE AS HE COULD POSSIBLY BE an it wasn't good enough. It's not that he won't return the depth of feelings, he just flat-out doesn't have those resources.
BRIEF NOTE: I mentioned in chan that Yuri is feeling more and more that Vincent is the only one who will have him. Sharon's heartgame ended up happening at a hilarious time because Yuri just keeps getting more and more entrenched into Vincent's world, and he's beginning to think that it's probably just for the best that Raven distance himself from him, since he himself is becoming more distant from Terca Lumireis.